Wednesday, August 31, 2005

From the Loggia Inbox...

Given the recent fury in the comboxes, this is such an apt comparison.... The e.mail from a particularly astute reader says it all:

For outrage value, sure beats the street buzz that's pondering whether the oldest American archdiocese can be considered a titular see....



Blogger Jason C. said...

I'm starting to think this blog is a farce run by a secret SSPX Bishop.

He doth protest too much, and what not.


31/8/05 20:07  
Blogger Jeff said...

Yes, somebody says, 'Gee, it might be dangerous to your soul if you leave the Church!"

The answer? "Anti-Semite! Homophobe! Mad-Trad! Panty-twister!"

Seems to me the rage is all one-sided!

31/8/05 21:25  
Blogger Gyrovagus said...


Someone actually said:


But don't let accurate quotes get in the way of the rant!

31/8/05 22:05  
Blogger Jeff said...


Yes, I said Pax for now on a previous thread and offered a truce. But this is another thread, so since you're poking at me (and the sensible commenter who dared--dared!--to mention damnation), I'm poking back.

What *I* said was just a string of quotes from your set. So, it's not MY rant. But it IS a useful strategy to keep dodging the main point by using the word "rant" in every comment. It helps to keep from engaging on substance.

I never defended the strict accuracy of the commenter. I merely pointed out and (sigh!) I guess I have to point out AGAIN, that, though it might have been over the top (slightly), when compared to what you guys have been saying, it's, as C. S. Lewis might put it, Mere Catholicism.

One doesn't celebrate leaving the Church. Though it's POSSIBLE that someone might find salvation EVEN THOUGH they do that, it's not Catholic to ASSUME that you're just as well off if you belong to some other religion. I ASSUME you think it IS just as good, since you never seem to find the time to address the basic point, but instead continually protest that you take your Mass Musty and Dusty, with lots of Latin, and a dash of Gregorian, please.

As far as the Saints, the Fathers, and the Doctors of the Church have been concerned, do you want to maintain that they would have said that people who apostasize are just as likely to be saved as anyone else? Or would they say that in the ordinary course of things, those who apostasize (you know all about rites, but you never will admit that abandoning your Catholic Faith and taking up another religion is what apostasy IS) are damnable? Maybe you think that the great Teachers of the Church have all believed in Universal Salvation. Yes, yes, Origen did. Isn't that SAINT Origen? No, I guess it isn't... Wonder why?

So again, probable damnation is slightly over the top. "Objectively merits damnation; is a mortal sin of the gravest possible character" comes closer to the mot juste. But acting as if there isn't an extremely serious possibility of damnation; No, CELEBRATING the apostasy and attacking those who criticize it is utterly un-Catholic.

Traditional Catholicism, Gyrovagus, doesn't just consist in having good taste in rubrics and a fondness for classical languages. Nor does it consist in being smart as the dickens and knowing all about the proper use of a rochet. It involves things like telling people that if they commit mortal sins (like apostasy) and don't repent, they will go to Hell. Not in accusing them of anti-Semitism if they dare to state completely unremarkable Catholic teaching. That's all the commenter did. He called Wickedness by its right name and that takes a lot more balls than your pandering swipe at him.

Do you remember St. Maria Goretti? Remember what she told her attacker? "Stop! If you do this, you will go to Hell!" I'm sure if you'd been there you would have lectured her on the impropriety of assuming that she could forsee the ultimate disposition of her attacker's soul. Well, fiddle dee dee and a snap of the fingers to your footling objections. But I'm guessing she's not one of your favorite Heavenly Denizens anyway. She probably didn't know a thurible from a thurifer and couldn't have conjugated "damnare" in the preterite subjunctive to save her soul.

31/8/05 23:13  
Blogger Gyrovagus said...


Im sorry - VERY SORRY - that I didn't see your "truce" message until I had already posted here.

I couldn't begin to answer in detail all of your insinuations about my belief in universal salvation, my repudiation of the Fathers, my obsessive attachment to classical languages, Gregorian Chant and dust . . . or whatever the hell you are talking about in that paragraph.

On the other hand, while admitting to being old, I vigorously deny having known St. Maria Goretti personally, although - based on that quote you gave from her - I knew girls like her in high school. I don't know why you think she wouldn't be one of my favorites. I'm not a big fan of mortal sins or rape. Must have something to do with my wishy-washy attitude toward dead apostate women rabbis.

I do truly apologize to you for knowing Latin . . . for knowing anything at all for that matter, and hope that such knowledge will not be cause for my probable damnation.

Speaking of which, I am grateful for our agreement on the fact that "probable damnation is slightly over the top," which is the point I was trying to make - several strings and it seems like three pontificates ago.

I take to heart your godly admonition about "pandering swipes" - you may not know the preterite subjunctive of damnare, Jeff, but before your ability to panderingly swipe, veneremur cernui (just showing off: it's Latin for "birettas off to you!").

And now, I gratefully accept your offer of a PAX. I leave you to revel in at last having found someone on Rocco's blog who dares to call Wickedness by its right (and we do mean right!) name and, as you put it so memorably, to marvel at his balls!*

* Jon's, not Rocco's

1/9/05 00:53  
Blogger Jeff said...


Damnaverim, damnaveris...

Bully for you, really, for being an educated and cultured man. And especially for knowing that anyone who doesn't have the mentality of a slave must master arts and savor pleasures that have no practical payoff! You must encounter scorn and slight enough for your noble loves; it's a pity that I added to them. I only plead, Magister, that the temptation to use superior knowledge and a fine wit to thrash or abash the less fortunate must be indulged with care. Sometimes the less well-schooled may hew more closely to wisdom than is apparent.

Whittaker tells me that 'cernuus' is an old shoe, not a biretta, but he's a Classicist and I look for enlightenment. I any case, I don't wear a biretta and don't even have a cap I can doff to you! But thank you for being a civilized man; we need more of you and we need them desperately.

In any case, out of the lists for us--for the time being. I will try to restrain myself for a while, so long as you don't poke at me too viciously. And I reserve the right, sometime in the future, to engage with you again if you wield you rapier too fiercely against those who seem to me to deserve an ally or a champion.

So, PAX fiat iterum nobis et gratias ago. (I do not show off; I merely muddle along as best I can!)

1/9/05 01:59  

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